Was anyone else mad at Nasuada?, Her actions in Brisingr Options

[VMIFerrari]

Being a responsible leader is no easy task; so much depends on you that you'll rarely ever find peace. Some of you have stated that Nasuada was mean and acted poorly in Brisingr, but that's part of what it means to be a leader who has to make tough decisions for the greater good of the people. I'm sure she did not like ordering Eragon to go to the Dwarves without Saphira, but she understood it was necessary. Therefore, she made the right decision.
In the case where Roran disobeyed his idiot captain, I'm sure Nasuada was proud of Roran's accomplishments, but that doesn't mean she can simply ignore disobedience. If she ignores it once, it would probably happen again and cause endless trouble for the Varden.....something they could not afford. Do you think she liked having Roran whipped? Of course not, but duty forced her to do it. Rememer that she removed the captain from command shortly thereafter and gave Roran a very challenging command of his own (AND she had Angela & Trianna tend to him). Her swift actions proves that Nasuada recognizes his worth.

YOU HAVE TO BE FIRM!!!

This post has been edited by VMIFerrari: Sep 23 2008, 09:51 PM

[kingorrinsfan]

And then to think that she considered a marriage with Orrin!?! I know she called it a marriage of "convenience" but STILL, I don't know what Orrin would have said to that!

Orrin would have laughed at her.

[sirwence]

Nasuada I was I must admit not overly happy with. And as she openly admit Eragon has both the power and authority to ignore her orders and usurp her. Also 'Law' is a very board term.. And it seems the Varden have 3 laws.. which is a rather small number no matter of the army or its era, I can think of none that were this simplistic. And I dont' see her having the courage to tell Eragon of her actions. Which to me is a sign of weakness, or even fear- Go ahead tell him you just whipped whom he considers his true blood brother 50 times for saving his men. I do not think he would be very pleased with her.

And on the subject of Law.. Eragon IS the keeper of the peace- He can claim that right and void any punish she throws down. It is his lack of desire for power, and his desire to have everyone united. Which caused him to make the oaths he has.

Also A commander who recklessly, and foolishly disregards his men for his pride , or any other reason should be dismissed, and whipped himself. If she was to whip Roran she should have whipped the Commander. Also the clause in most armies of 'it is the right of the solider to disobey an illegal order of any kind' Doesn't seem to come into play here. I think this was just a poor attempt to show the Varden on the verge of tearing each other apart and her attempts to keep it united (For example the mission she sent Roran on after his flogging) Also her right to say he can not ask Eragon for healing? She has none- She may be his liege lord, but only for so long as he desires her to be, A dragon rider is above any king queen or commander.

So I can understand her reasons. But the lack of case by case , and lack of depth for laws in the Varden.. and her own Arrogance which truly did show in Brisingr, I find rather unhealthy. For example You disobeyed a direct order, however your reasons for disobeying said order- Were tp save your men from a mad order that would kill them all, and due to it you save your company and win a battle you should by all means lose. you get 15 lashs and suffer nothing more. Taking ALL into account. She does say if it was anyone else and had his move not brought victory it might have been a hanging (or something along those lines) I would love to see her attempt that, And is it before or after Eragon takes over the Varden. She wouldnt dare waste a leader and a warrior of his caliber NOR would she dare Kill the only real family the last Dragon Rider has, do that and she loses his support and by proxy her leadership.

/end rant

YOU HAVE TO BE FIRM!!!

She had to. It was the law.

You also have to learn to balance that firmness be to firm and you will break your own forces, 50 lashes was excessive for the crime. And the commander suffered no punishment until someone from his company committed FOUR murders. She showed a complete LACK of leadership in allowing him to maintain command for even a minute after learning of his actions in that battle. He earned a whipping himself. And the utter lack of depth and lack of true military justice, in the laws of the Varden are just depressing. "Hanging , 30 lashes banishment, 50 lashes stay" .....sorry thats to general and simplistic and as is shown it has not held the army in full order. So you follow a poorly apointed commander to your death.. Or get whipped to death or hung.. Yea... real good law system shes got set up. As the leader I would have expected a better more sufficient justice system. And again it is the soldiers duty to disobey an illegal or wrongful order.

This post has been edited by sirwence: Sep 23 2008, 10:38 PM

[texasman]

Whipping Roran would not have been too abstract. 50 times starts to get a wee bit strict. Making him go into battle immediately after (where other's would have sufficed) is the breaking point, especially considering some of his back muscles weren't even properly attached.

[sirwence]

considering some of his back muscles weren't even properly attached.

Roran is simply lucky that Angela, was there to aide in his healing. As she openly has said she does not take orders herself. You can ask her, and she either will or won't (and is one of the only people who will openly just come out and bludgeon Eragon and thank him for the 10 extra years work heh I found that bit fairly amusing). Much the same with Eragon. And her entire "Go, or take over the Varden" was a bit melodramatic. If he truly wanted command he could take it from her at anytime. The people will follow him over her, as he not she is their beacon of hope. And by the fact that he has not, shows he has no true desire for power over others.
But as for my stance on the lashings and amount see my long rant... sigh

This post has been edited by sirwence: Sep 23 2008, 10:29 PM

[sk8er_girl]

Even if you find fault with the character, you have to remember that it was the auther that gave life and characteristics to that character. That matter of the laws to which the Varden obey, so that the auther himself has either forwent the trouble of establishing an actually army to the standards of which we know and understand, or that he ignored the matter entirely and simply attempted to as they said:

I think this was just a poor attempt to show the Varden on the verge of tearing each other apart and her attempts to keep it united

And it was stated that, if not for Eragon being his cousin he would have been hung. That much I remember, even Nasuada knows not to test the wrath of a Rider who has only one true blood relative left. Personally I didn't mind her, in fact I quite enjoyed this book more so than I did Eldest.


This post has been edited by sk8er_girl: Sep 23 2008, 10:43 PM

[letta du zarroc]

I can tell that most of the fans on this site are younger, because the older people realize that if she had no had Roran whipped everyone in the Varden would have stopped taking orders from her, Roran understood why she did it and accepted it because he knew she was right. Also it is the way things were done in the past its obvious this story doesnt take place in present day times, and back in these times if you didnt do as you were told while serving in an army you were killed no questions ask.

[VMIFerrari]

Hmmm. There seem to be some parallels between the "Roran gets whipped" scene and the whipping scene from Glory. Go rent the movie and skip to the scene where Matthew Broderick is forced to whip Denzel Washington for desertion, even though he had no desire to do it and later found out that Denzel didn't desert the army after all. Still, duty required Broderick to proceed with the punishment (and then he immediately had the regiment's best medics tend to Denzel's wounds). I watched that film in a class and we were later asked why Broderick's actions were the right thing to do.

I think the same can be said of what Nasuada did with Roran. 50 lashes is extreme IMO, but Nasuada probably did not make the law, nor was she able to simply disregard it.

This post has been edited by VMIFerrari: Sep 23 2008, 11:00 PM

[sk8er_girl]

You assume, I for one had no problem with Nasuada. As Roran said, the chain of command was broken and he chose to take those fifty lashes. He wished to continue to serve the Varden, in fact it was well played. Roran had the chance to kill Edric and return to the Varden without anyone knowning of his break in command. I can't remember the guys name, but he made meantion of doing away with Edric when he demanded that Roran give up his weapons and step down from position and become a prisoner. Roran's words were something like, Don't be a fool. Regardless, Nasuada must lead the Varden through force and show that she has the power to lead. She has already risked her life by the Trial of the Long Knives to gain their trust, Nasuada has no other concern except for what is best for the Varden. And as for being parted with Saphira, that was selfishness on Eragon's part. He knew that by swearing his loyalty to Nasuada that he promised his obedience to her. Yet Saphria did not, and Saphria agreed with staying, it was a relapse of being young and wanting what he could not have. Eragon is a keeper of the peace, yet till the king is killed and peace is finally restored, it is his responsibility to serve those he had pledged to. By his chosen path he takes little action to rise above the ranks of command, he does what is right. And it is a good thing. I belive Saphira said it, if Eragon shared her love of blood the whole of Alagasia would bow before them along with Galbatorix and Shurikan. Roran knew exactly what would happen when he broke the chain of command, and was lucky by his relationship to Eragon and his victory to escape a hanging. And keep in mind, Nasuada said Edric was no more a captain she never said if anything happened to him. Also his reward was to be placed as a captain over his own group of men. His steadfast dedication and willingness to accept the pain that fell upon him from his actions ensured that he would not be rising up and rebelling against the Varden anytime soon.

....I think I went on rambling, now I have to sleep, my mind is addled and I am too tired to continue my endless chatter.

[sirwence]

I can tell that most of the fans on this site are younger, because the older people realize that if she had no had Roran whipped everyone in the Varden would have stopped taking orders from her, Roran understood why she did it and accepted it because he knew she was right. Also it is the way things were done in the past its obvious this story doesnt take place in present day times, and back in these times if you didnt do as you were told while serving in an army you were killed no questions ask.

I can tell you have a strong lack of historical knowledge, if you mean to proclaim that if you did not do exactly as told in an army in these times* I assume you would mean the 14-15 hundreds? Though you would have to be specific in order for me to know.. BUT' Even then you had a military code of conduct, and very frequently incompetent officers were treated just as harshly as the soldiers under their command. Only a Barbarian army of which the Franks Prussians Polish , Danish Spanish ... ETC ETC were not barbarian hordes. And if a solider in say the Frankish 3rd infantry company realized his commander was quite mad, rallied his troops and slew 700 Prussians and saved hundreds of his men. Turning a suicidal battle into a crushing victory. He would NOT have been whipped to within an inch of his life. He would have likely had a judgment placed upon him and 10 lashes And likely no reduction in rank, and possibly be watched for two things, the ability to command and rebellious behavior if he showed the first and not the second other then in dire need he might be promoted several weeks or months later if the war deemed it needed. While the Commander would lose his command. Where as in this case she whipped him 50 times, and allowed the commander to maintain his command until someone under that command committed not one or two but FOUR murders. Bad play In my opinion.

Please keep in mind Mutiny and Disobeying an order may seem the same, but they are quite far apart. Do not assume age by opinion.


Also Sk8er , he never had plans to rise up against the Varden. Her punishment went to far. In any other army a humiliating 50 lashes. Would have well kill the man firstly. And if he lived disabled him from fighting in all likely hood. And if he LIVED and was HEALTHY, he would never be able to command due to the humiliation of 50 lashes for doing as a real leader should.

And on a side note I would like to see Eragons view of the flogging. I wonder if we will.

This post has been edited by sirwence: Sep 23 2008, 11:13 PM

[sk8er_girl]

Sorry I did not myself clear. I understand the severity of the lashes and the fact that it very well could have killed him. Yet that was why she had her sorceress and Angela tend to him immediately; to ensure that did not happen. What I meant by:

His steadfast dedication and willingness to accept the pain that fell upon him from his actions ensured that he would not be rising up and rebelling against the Varden anytime soon.

Was that because he accepted his punishment and infact understood the reason for it meant that ....I can't really explain myself, but I never meant to indicate that Roran wanted to overthrow the Varden. I suppose what I am trying to say is that, because Roran understood the reason for his punishment it showed that he was loyal to the Varden and did not have any rebellious thoughts on the matter. As I said, he had the chance to kill Edric and Nasuada would never had known of him disobeying orders. He did not do that, he has a very strong sense of loyalty and pride in the matter, and as Roran himself said when he was about to disobey his orders. He would take responsibility for it. And as for the matter of it being in a matter of speakng, crossing the line, yes I agree. Yet as I think I may have said. It shows that either that is what the author wished, for it is since he wrote it. Or it shows his lack of indepth knowledge about historical armies and the order of things.

I find it hard to exactly explain myeslf, but over all I argee it went too far. Yet keep in mind, in this book magic is possible and because of that the likelihood of him being maimed by the act or killed was very little. Nasuada ensured he would not die, reason for Trianna and Angela. And I'm curious what Eragon would say also...Anyway I hope my ramble wasn't too confusing.

[Inziliel]

Wow--a lot has been said here!

Anou~ Well, I certainly agree with many of the people here who say that it was necessary to show that disobedience would not be tolerated. If we want to try to get "historical" references, it may be difficult simply because this is an imaginary "reality", oxymoron though it is. Still, from looking at the lifestyle, we see that not everyone can read and write, not many people know history (especially since Galbatorix now destroyed much of past information--such as the truth of the Riders of past eras) and the "soldiers"--on both sides--tend to be people without established training and military lifestyles (though the Varden has a sort of advantage on that, since its main purpose is to fight, so any children raised within the Varden would probably make it point to get some combat practice starting from youth up. Still, people who fled and took refuge with the Varden, or defected from Galbatorix's pulled army, etc. etc., they would not have any training, even if they already had passed 20 years.) With those kinds of situations, it is clear that tactics may not be understood by the whole, and so the importance of following orders of more experienced officers--even grumpy, bad ones--must be kept in sight.

Still, as Roran showed true heroism there (and I recall that right before I finally gave in and joined after all this time, I read a topic here about the possibility of really slaying so many people, and there were various responses and possibilities and situations, etc. etc.), I agree that Nasuada went overboard. Perhaps since there is magic and magic healing is available, punishments could be more strict in those times, but even that would take away much of the fear of punishment, would it not? Therefore I understand her request that he not have his wounds fully healed. Still, would it not have been more reasonable to give a punishment that wasn't so drastic and didn't have to be healed like that? I must think so.

Perhaps if the average soldier would normally be killed, she was doing him a favor by sparing him. Still, imagine on ships and the like, where people also get whipped for disobeying orders. Supposedly there exist records where sailors (but more often, captured pirates) were ordered 50 to 100 lashes--noting that this was with the "Captain's Daughter"/"Cat o' Nine Tails" (which are two "nicknames" for the same instrument.) However, sources note that "10 to 20" lashes were more common; in reading of Uriah Phillips Levy, a member of the American Navy in the 19th century who pushed for the reform banning corporal punishment in the US Navy, one source suggested that the flogging he witnessed was a case where each count of punishment was awarded 12 strokes (though the particular culprit had three separate counts, and ended in a mangled, bloody mess passed out since the 30th stroke.) Going back as far as the Roman Empire, the more severe kinds of Ancient Roman whips: the "flagrum" or (slightly smaller) "flagellum", with metal in the knots or tied on the end (a variation was the "astragala", which had bones from rams called "astragali" instead of metal bits in them); or the "scorpion", which is named after the stinging arachnid because they had metal hooks in them; made it easy to kill even with under 40 lashes. The two milder whips (ferula, a leather strap; and scutica, twisted parchment thongs) would, of course, be less likely to kill the criminals. The three classes of whipping/scourging punishments seem irrelevant at this point. However, the law of 40 lashes being some sort of maximum was actually a Jewish tradition, and Roman law seems to have had no such restriction as far as I could ascertain (noting that I do not know Latin)--flogging with the scourging whips was usually followed by death, however, and was often a compound of a death sentence (before the hanging/crucifixion/etc.)

Looking at all of the information in whole, I can only imagine that Nasuada ordering 50 lashes is really just preposterous. Of course, I may have found bad information, but since I just got caught up and spent the last 3 hours looking for it, I certainly hope it's accurate enough to draw a reasonable conclusion. It may have been better to note the option of death--though I would assume the only time death would be the only option would be IN combat/on the field, or if the disobedience was a movement toward mutiny of some sort, or treasonous, or some other dangerous or repeated crime--and that she didn't find it necessary or acceptable in his case, and offer 15 lashes and banishment or perhaps a maximum of 30 to stay. This is, of course, assuming that the healers assure he doesn't die afterward.

In all honesty, the magical healers are the only reason so many lashes would work. Even with normal rope whips, 30+ lashes could often mean flesh and skin was everywhere--sometimes more than one "Cat o' Nine Tails" had to be used in those cases, and people were often disabled from such floggings. The strength and force of the strokes needs to be taken into consideration as well, I suppose. Lashes strong enough to break the skin after 5 strokes would obviously be more harmful and dangerous than lashes that didn't break the skin until 10 strokes, though I suppose that would never happen, since people who whipped tended to be "professional" or at least "experienced". On ships and the like, there were even sometimes specified people who did the floggings.

I certainly think Roran's flogging was excessive (though in his defense, Mr. Christopher Paolini did have Katrina note that people do die from that number of lashes), and the ex-Captain Edric was a moron who deserved neither his post nor its protection. I was glad that he "is a captain no more."


To the next issue I noticed, people thought it was strange for Nasuada to wonder about marriage and the like. To be honest...I am not surprised. She is a young woman, though not so young that she wouldn't in many circumstances already be married and awaiting--if not already having borne--children of her own. Her position has held her back from her potential motherhood. In the times that had similarities to the world in Eragon, a woman waited until she was quite old if she married at 25, and marriage at 30 was fairly unheard of. Men in some societies married at varying ages, but even then very late marriages were a sort of stigma except to recluse scholars and the like. It was a strange position to be unmarried in her time.

And then to think that she considered a marriage with Orrin!?! I know she called it a marriage of "convenience" but STILL, I don't know what Orrin would have said to that!

Orrin would have laughed at her.

I actually disagree. I am not so sure that he would have taken the request, but I expect he would have seriously considered the consequences, and certainly never have laughed. Even if they share a sort of friendship and intimacy more than the stern relations of allied "states", I doubt he would laugh at her in private. He would have to have more tact and political sense than that. If nothing else, his liberty in behaving childishly and joking around from Eldest (though at the time it annoyed me, and he had a bit left to redeem himself in my eyes until his more serious behavior in Brisingr.

Nasuada seems to actually have a huge degree of political and mental finesse. The whipping thing was...brutal, for lack of better words, but it is not so far-fetched for marriages to be arranged for the sake of politics. I get the feeling that the statement may have been made to show the more "human" side of Nasuada at a time when her coldness may have turned the readers' opinions against her and seemingly transformed her into a sort of "Ice Queen". She even was too embarrassed to suggest the proposal (and I apologize for the pun, though it was unintended) herself. Thinking of the time period, I interpreted that as one more thing that reminds her of how she misses her father, and I felt pity for her. Showing that she has more normal, human worries, embarrassment, etc. was a way, I think, to keep her character rounded. It is obvious throughout the novel that she is stressed and sort of "a spring wound too tightly". She snaps, gets frustrated and sometimes seems to be at a loss of what to do. She rules to the best of her ability, though, and I think she does "okay" at keeping the best interests of her people in mind and at heart. I'm not particularly happy with her right now, but I don't have any more time to analyze and so want to conclude saying that I think she will "redeem" herself in the last book. ^_^

[convict]

Nasuada did mention that Roran could be a threat to her. Maybe she is getting nervous that he might be a better leader than her. You know nasuada going to die in the next book and Roran will take over the varden and then eventually take over the empire.

Mark my words

[sirwence]

Nasuada did mention that Roran could be a threat to her. Maybe she is getting nervous that he might be a better leader than her. You know nasuada going to die in the next book and Roran will take over the varden and then eventually take over the empire.

Mark my words

By rights the largest threats to her are the council. As nither Roran nor Eragon want to rule the empire , or lead the Varden, if Eragon wanted to, he could have taken control of the Varden himself, with the support of the people. Seeing as neither want it, the only way they would take it is if she died and left it to one of them to lead in her place. Unless she dies I see no other Varden Leader.

[convict]

I think she is going to die in the next book and Eragon will make Roran in charge.