[Arthryn]

Sorting out this topic with proper formatting in a whole new thread.

It seems like one thing that many of our WH writers have little experience with is the art of both giving and receiving critique. I'd just like to make it clear that when people jump in and tell you areas in your writing that you need to work on, it is a GOOD thing, it means they've taken the time to read and analyze your work, and they're not doing it to be mean.

Recently, two of our members posted wonderful write-ups about critique, how to both give and receive it, and how to use it to your advantage, so I'm consolidating them here:

On Critiquing

As of late, I have noticed that good, constructive critiques on the Writer’s Hangout are lacking. Now, instead of whining about it, I decided to make a sort-of “critiquing-for-dummies” guide in plain English. You don’t need to be an expert, nor do you need to have extreme knowledge of grammar or spelling, nor anything like that. Seriously, wipe that off your mind if that’s where your current beliefs lie. I’m tired of hearing “I’m just not good enough, I’m afraid my opinion is worthless, no one will take it.”

Those things are all BS; and please excuse my French.

Can you read? Alright, then you can critique. Reading how other critiques are done can help you as well. I won’t discuss formatting of critiques because if you take a look around you will clearly see that everyone has different ways of doing it. If you have no idea what I’m talking about, just keep reading.

First, a couple of points about what critiquing is, and what it is not:

• Critiquing is not a way of showing a writer that you're superior, thinking you have the upper hand and that within you lies the ultimate truth. That’s the opposite of the beliefs I’ve mentioned before, but just in case.
  
• Critiquing is not a revenge trip. It's not a way to attack personally.
  
• Critiquing is not all that easy, and it’s not all that hard.
  
• Critiquing is a way of helping the writer grow by showing what you think are the best ways of accomplishing it.

When you're critiquing, an "in my humble opinion" should always be implied. The writer can take or leave your suggestions, and while we hope they will take it, that will not always be the case. You can, and are encouraged, to give some examples of how they could change. An example is worth a thousand words.

I rarely offer criticism on setting, character development, or plot. Why? Because I usually don't read enough to be able to give constructive criticism on it. If you read a couple of chapters, you might be able to give pointers on that, and that's wonderful. If you're being the critic, what you fundamentally have to look for is things that are not flowing; things that don't work. Sometimes you have a reader's ear for that, and can simply state "This (imho implied) doesn't work."

There’s always odd words here and there, grammar problems, spelling mistakes, dialogue that doesn't just fit, purple prose, bad dialogue tags, misplaced modifiers, excessive use of passive voice, etc, etc. If you spot it, point it out.

It doesn't all have to be negative of course. At the end of your critique, you can give a short summary and tell the writer what you think, overall. Here's the place to praise things that work (and WHY, if you can spot that.) This alone can make the writer appreciate your critique a lot more.

Here's also the place to give what your first impressions were, if it grabbed you from the start, whatever. Don't be afraid to critique something that you might not be familiar with. Just because you’ve never read a romantic piece doesn’t mean your opinions are worth nil.

Last point, don’t read a critique of a piece you're about to critique, if that makes sense. Go ahead, make yours and later read the others' and see if you both agree on a point. If you don't, all the better for that lucky writer.

So, there it is. On the premise of making it short, I didn’t exhaust every point. If you have doubts, send me a message. I hope this makes you all the more eager (and confident) to go ahead and offer some critiques, so no more excuses now.

How to take criticism

First this: be happy you even get criticized! Someone took the time to read your story and then thought about it long enough to really form an opinion and then wrote it all down, thereby taking time out of their possibly busy schedule. So, don't be all bitter because someone didn't lke your story, they cared enough to voice their opinion, which means a lot.

Now would be a good time to decide whether it's actual criticism or just flaming. This is fairly easy, criticism points out the things the reader didn't like, but actually leaves the possibiltiy of making it better, something I'll make clear later. Flaming is just stuff like "This is the worst story ever/You can't write pooop/etc.", you know the drill.

Okay, so you got actual, maybe even objective, criticism. Say, "Well, your story's not bad, but it's bogged down in way too much description and there's not nearly enough dialogue."
Now you can get defensive and say "But I like it that way, it's my style!"

If that's really your style and you don't care about what people think and just want to tell a story without worrying about the specifics, or just really want to keep that style, great. Put your C-Level to 0 and never ask for critique ever again. You are just wasting your time and, more importantly, your critic's.

If, on the other hand, you want to get better and really want to take the criticism seriously, learn to read it: "Too much description" means "Cut down the description. We don't need it, it's unnecessary and takes away from the story. We want more action."
Obvious, right? Well, a lot of people still don't seen to get it, so I just wrote it down
Something else: The moment you begin to argue a point ("But the description is important! I want the reader to know the color of my heroine's dress"), you stop taking the criticism seriously. Instead, you're just defending yourself, meaning you don't want to improve. Ask for help instead: "What description do you think I should take out?"

So, that was my short guide on how to take criticism. It might not work for everybody and maybe I'm just blabbering, but maybe some of you can profit from that way of thinking.

Anyway, please feel free to add your own ways of taking criticism well, so that maybe we'll have a comprehensive guide for different kinds of people.

[Darth Futuza]

Yay for formatting. This seriously is good advice people, read through it. All of it.

[Zera]

Any suggestions you might have about this are more than welcome, opinions as well.

[Foaly]

Thanks or that, I really didn't have much of an idea about how to critique. I might start doing it more often now.

[Viva America]

I want to point out a few more things, if I may.
Look, I'm not an expert on critiquing, but I do know more things than 'just the basics'.

These,
Critique 1.
Critique 2.
Are proper critiques. This is what a writer with a C-3 level wants to hear. A C-3 level writer is a writer who writes something, for his/her own entertainment purposes, and he might want to become an amateur writer in the future, mostly blog or web-novel. Maybe even publishing his/her stuff when he/she has written some really great stuff.

Note. Pointing out grammar/spelling mistakes is not critique.

Praise is admired, but keep it to a certain level.

I, myself, consider:

"OMG I like it please keep writing I luv it!! "

that kind of stuff, as 0-value, it just adds nothing. The mods will even consider it as spam. Do not do it.

I, the writer, want to know why you, the reader, likes it so much.

Example.

Eragon had the strange sensation of falling. Visions flew past his eyes. He saw Durza grinning maliciously at him filed teeth bared. It then morphed into Brom's crystal tomb, sparkling in the sunlight. He fell past Arya, first the vision of her breaking his fairth, then of her planting the lily tat he had grown for her. Then he saw Saphira mending the star rose. He saw Arya again, lunging forward, raven hair flying as she stabbed a shade in the heart. Then he saw Oromis sitting resplendent on Glaedr’s back as they presented themselves to him when he had first seen them in Ellesmera.

The first few lines, especially designed to catch one’s attention. What you have done here, is portray an evil or dark, if you name it as that, ‘omen’. What will happen in the next paragraph, I want suspension, I want to dragged to the next paragraph, I want to find out what will happen, is it a dream, is it a premise?

Questions that go through your reader’s mind.

Eragon had the strange sensation of falling. Visions flew past his eyes. He saw Durza grinning maliciously at him filed teeth bared.

Falling towards? Visions, what visions? Durza… Durza was evil.

Questions that leave me unanswered, I want to find out what his next visions will be!

- A dark, not-good-promising start always does good things. But so does a good start. The key is to hold on to that beginning, and then come crushing down on it, halfway or at the last part of the paragraph.

. He fell past Arya, first the vision of her breaking his fairth, then of her planting the lily tat he had grown for her.

- Good blending. First the most painful memory, followed immediately by the best memory he has of her. The rest of the paragraph is practically ‘good’.

I give you an example of my very first paragraph.

The sun shone brightly in the sky, and birds were singing their morning songs, when Eragon woke up. A day that would have been a lovely day to be walking in the tall grass, which was growing in the fertile soil surrounding the city of Feinster. Herbivores, such as deer, sheep and cows were all enjoying the plentiness of the grass they were inhabiting. Normally, they would have been enjoying the fresh breeze that came from the sea. But this day, thin smoke rose up from burned houses in the city, polluting the morning air.

- Good-good-good-good-good-very bad. Suspension, tension, eagerment… in a good way.

That's an example of how you critique someone on how you've been caught into his/her story.

Not: "Omg, I loved the description, and how you made Eragon feel so much pain after the death of Oromis, I Luv it, please keep writing!! "

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I hope this has added something. Once again, this is proper critique, worthy of a C-3 level. I'm not saying I'm an expert critiquer, but I hope people can learn from this.

Jesper.

[Kari]

Agreed! I really do hope we see more constructive criticism in the future. As Jesper stated, a lot of posts are just 0-lever bordering on spam.

Not to mention that posts like "OMG!!! It's awesome! u rok! Update!!' Don't do nil for the writer apart from inflaming their egos, and wrongly so.
Another few examples of critique (not sure what C-level)
Critique

Pointing out grammar and spelling, as previously said, doesn't relaly help the writer unless he or she is writing in a foreign to them language.

This post has been edited by Kari&Gatomon: 17 August 2009 - 12:46 PM

[Katya]

I think that pointing out grammar is a good thing. Remember Thorin's days of grammar-policing nearly everything he critiqued? Sure, it might've been a little extreme and intimidating. However, I actually found it helpful. Most people could stand to learn a thing or two about grammar, anyways. Our education systems at school (at least in California) are so lacking that they devote no time to grammar; leaving many of us clueless and unaware of the mistakes we make in our writing. If you find a grammar mistake that isn't an obvious typo, by all means point it out.

[greenriderangel]

Thank you for posting this! It really is helpful when reading over not only others' works but my own!
Yes, spelling and grammar are always good things to point out... especially if it causes certain distractions to the story.