[Marth Matix]

Hmm...you know what disappoints me when it comes to watching any particular film or reading any particular novel? It's the portrayal that a male cannot muster the guts to fight a female opponent, and vice-versa. Rarely, do I really ever see a female character duel a male. I always see females fight females and males fight males. But there's never a gender vs. gender type of scenario. Nothing major anyway. Why do you think this occurs? I loved it when Bellatrix Lestrange dueled her cousin Sirius Black; yes, that was a sad battle for our dear Sirius, but observing a female duel a male was downright awesome! Why don't authors produce more of this exciting stuff?

This post has been edited by Marth Matix: 25 April 2009 - 04:53 PM

[Foaly]

Male and female fought in 'Mr. and Mrs. Smith'.. I think the husband and wife fought... Like... totally destroyed the house... that was pretty sweet.

[Go for Gin]

Unfair double standards. If men aren't paired up with men and women with women, one of two things will result. One: the man will win, and women will be angry because he's a man and it's an unfair fight. Two: the woman will win, and it implies that the man is either a wimp, the woman is incredibly strong, or the author is somewhere from biased in sex to sexist.

Now let's close this before it turns into an argument about feminism.

[Spinner]

Let's not jump the gun here, Andy. I'd like to think we can get a little dangerous and reign it in.

First--damn, you've had this female character tick for yeeeeears, Marthy . I have no idea what exactly your getting at with this thread--it seems more like you're railing frustration than anything. I'm going to come at it from a standpoint of reader bias--shut me up if it wasn't what you meant.

Andy, you've outlined it pretty well. I think it's the readers bias we need to worry about just as much as the writers'. IMHO, and I know I say this a lot, its got a lot to do with execution. It's sort of like what we were talking about in the "writing female characters" thread and how women in fantasy is always portrayed in a sexualized fashion. It's desirable, its what male readers want. Sexualized characters draw.

The distinction I want to make is that this obviously isn't limited to just fantasy, and not just fighting. I saw the movie "State of Play" recently, and the female lead was about as unsexualized as I've ever seen. If anything, it was one of the most realistic relationships I've seen in movie lately--one that still manages to keep sexual tension without dumping the gravy all over you. In our society, we have this rule where you're not supposed to hit girls. Why? I was brought up to think its because they're more sensitive. Then I became friends with girls in high school who could literally kick my ass without going for the sweet spot. I learned through that gender roles can be pretty much nil. Problem is, society doesn't think that way.

So here lies the challenge.

The worst thing you can possibly do is approach it from a general standpoint. If you're going to bring up sex in a fight in any book, you don't to play it, "well, she's winning, therefore he's weak," like Andy said, or, "she's losing, God, that man is abusive." What you're pitting here are two characters with their own assumption of roles. The woman could be feminine, yet have played football with the boys in her neighborhood growing up, giving her seeds to shape up her physique. She also could be unfeminine and be that way. The trick is playing it in a way that the reader doesn't read the typical gender bias into the situation.

And that's where you gotta be crafty as a writer.

Ben

[Marth Matix]

Let's not jump the gun here, Andy. I'd like to think we can get a little dangerous and reign it in.

First--damn, you've had this female character tick for yeeeeears, Marthy . I have no idea what exactly your getting at with this thread--it seems more like you're railing frustration than anything. I'm going to come at it from a standpoint of reader bias--shut me up if it wasn't what you meant.

Andy, you've outlined it pretty well. I think it's the readers bias we need to worry about just as much as the writers'. IMHO, and I know I say this a lot, its got a lot to do with execution. It's sort of like what we were talking about in the "writing female characters" thread and how women in fantasy is always portrayed in a sexualized fashion. It's desirable, its what male readers want. Sexualized characters draw.

The distinction I want to make is that this obviously isn't limited to just fantasy, and not just fighting. I saw the movie "State of Play" recently, and the female lead was about as unsexualized as I've ever seen. If anything, it was one of the most realistic relationships I've seen in movie lately--one that still manages to keep sexual tension without dumping the gravy all over you. In our society, we have this rule where you're not supposed to hit girls. Why? I was brought up to think its because they're more sensitive. Then I became friends with girls in high school who could literally kick my ass without going for the sweet spot. I learned through that gender roles can be pretty much nil. Problem is, society doesn't think that way.

So here lies the challenge.

The worst thing you can possibly do is approach it from a general standpoint. If you're going to bring up sex in a fight in any book, you don't to play it, "well, she's winning, therefore he's weak," like Andy said, or, "she's losing, God, that man is abusive." What you're pitting here are two characters with their own assumption of roles. The woman could be feminine, yet have played football with the boys in her neighborhood growing up, giving her seeds to shape up her physique. She also could be unfeminine and be that way. The trick is playing it in a way that the reader doesn't read the typical gender bias into the situation.

And that's where you gotta be crafty as a writer.

Ben

Thanks for the insight, Ben. Yes, I know I've had this insane female character itch for nigh five years now. Crazy, I know, but I'm a curious person and I just wanted to pose the question and observe what you all think. Of course I have my own beliefs and they may or may not change. I'm not going to change a particular character just to make them more masculine, feminine, etc. I'm not manipulating my characters. Rather, I'm just letting my characters flow through me. Everything plays inside my head and, as I progress, I type or write all of it down into my paper and electronic journals.

I don't know about you but I'd just like to see some of these feminine stereotypes broken. Rarely are there any severe male stereotypes or prejudices. But you know what, you're absolutely right. If a character is raised a certain way, whether male or female, they'll grow up to whatever they want to be...whether the way they were raised influenced their decision or not.

[Bagenbaggage]

The only gender fighting i'd have is either with guns, a rape scene, or the harming of a pregnant woman. But that is just my F'ed up story telling (Last Fireman I had a pregnant woman being shot in the chest and killed with the child still alive). Fighting between genders would be very hard thing to do as Ben stated without being seen badly that is why i'd suggest modern weaponry if the story can allow it so that there is no physical edge.

[Spinner]

... What are you talking about, ShurtugalJohn?

What I was saying was that having a fight scene between two people of the opposite sex depends on depicting the characters as asexually as possible--so that the readers don't notice. And writing off physicality is a pretty knee-jerk way of keeping away gender bias. You gotta trust the reader with YOUR portrayal of a character not to read a role into them, and to do that you need to be able to write it.

It's very possible, and entirely dependent on execution. There a lot of people out there in the world you meet where you don't initially read their gender into their identity. It's in the way people dress, in the way they carry themselves, in the way they speak. One of my closest friends, for example, is a guy and gay, but he doesn't come across that way at all. We usually associate gay men with some sort of feminine edge--a lisp, an extroverted manner, or some sort of heightened sense of fashion (that's the raw, raw basics). Instead he dresses entirely in black, wears contacts that make his eyes appear completely white, and plays keyboard and guitar. There is nothing in his voice or the way that he carries himself that would indicate homosexuality. Another is another one of my close friends, a girl, who dresses in a completely feminine way, but has a massive obsession with Batman that carries into her attire. She's attractive in a way that's distinctly female, but she doesn't consciously own it unless she wants to. You can see her as a girl if you want, but you'd be watering her down.

If you know yourself and the characteristics you identify as female, you can write this stuff. That's what I was saying. Don't dumb down my point.

The only gender fighting i'd have is either with guns, a rape scene, or the harming of a pregnant woman. But that is just my F'ed up story telling (Last Fireman I had a pregnant woman being shot in the chest and killed with the child still alive).

That's unnecessarily brutal from the sound of it, unless you have a point to it. If you've read Watchmen (not the movie--the comic book), the scene where the Comedian kills the Vietnamese woman pregnant with his child is a good example of brutality as a window into character. He does exactly the same thing you're doing, only you're meant to read into it his own depravity at what he's experienced at the hands of war, his almost nihilistic attitude and that he calls himself "the Comedian," and also, the power of Dr. Manhattan, who is present throughout the encounter and how he does nothing. Otherwise, it's just senseless violence without a point.

Ben

This post has been edited by Spinner: 26 April 2009 - 11:05 PM

[Charles]

I have a man vs. woman "fight" in my story. It's more of an armed robbery attempt. My story is set in the 17th century, and my characters are mostly made up of quasi-pirates. To this degree they visit a brothel. The owner wants their money, as they are incredibly well equipped and supplied for what their goal is, so he plots to have his prostitutes kill them. One of them leaves their dinner early to partake, and a woman stabs him while they are having intercourse. He lives, gets enough strength to yell out. She attacks him, and the fight wraps up pretty quickly as he takes a couple more cuts but his compatriots come in and manage to subdue her.

She ends up becoming a fairly important character as she explains why she works there and her motivation for trying to kill this character, and eventually follow them as they leave to continue along their mission.

That being said, the reason I included this plot point was for a few reasons. I wanted to express the realism and gritty nature of these fellows as being a kind of immoral bunch. I wanted to introduce this female character to get across a theme in my story of the ambiguity of morality. I wanted to have a female character to develop my protagonists as well as adding to the world from the perspective of a woman.

But why did I have them fight? I had them fight because that is what made sense within the context of the characters and the story. To me, writing is a study of people. I don't think it's possible to be a good writer and not understand the human condition to a larger degree. To some degree, I feel this is what makes my characters better. My ability to read people correlates directly. I don't see how someone who doesn't understand other people and perspectives can write a story.

To this end, adding a cross gender fight to have a cross gender fight seems arbitrary. You might as well have your character fight a bear. Writing is an incredibly organic series of events from my experience, and once it is established as such these things will fall into place accordingly. To this degree, it makes sense that Sirius fought Bellatrix. They were natural enemies, so it makes sense they would seek each other out in a battle to fight. The real world we live in though often does not have men fighting women. I have never actually seen a woman and man fight each other; therefore, it would make sense that it wouldn't happen in a lot of stories. Unless a major point in your story is that unusual things happen a lot, having these events occur to have them occur will feel forced and tired.

[Bagenbaggage]

... What are you talking about, ShurtugalJohn?

It's very possible, and entirely dependent on execution. There a lot of people out there in the world you meet where you don't initially read their gender into their identity. It's in the way people dress, in the way they carry themselves, in the way they speak. One of my closest friends, for example, is a guy and gay, but he doesn't come across that way at all. We usually associate gay men with some sort of feminine edge--a lisp, an extroverted manner, or some sort of heightened sense of fashion (that's the raw, raw basics). Instead he dresses entirely in black, wears contacts that make his eyes appear completely white, and plays keyboard and guitar. There is nothing in his voice or the way that he carries himself that would indicate homosexuality. Another is another one of my close friends, a girl, who dresses in a completely feminine way, but has a massive obsession with Batman that carries into her attire. She's attractive in a way that's distinctly female, but she doesn't consciously own it unless she wants to. You can see her as a girl if you want, but you'd be watering her down.

If you know yourself and the characteristics you identify as female, you can write this stuff. That's what I was saying. Don't dumb down my point.

The only gender fighting i'd have is either with guns, a rape scene, or the harming of a pregnant woman. But that is just my F'ed up story telling (Last Fireman I had a pregnant woman being shot in the chest and killed with the child still alive).

That's unnecessarily brutal from the sound of it, unless you have a point to it. If you've read Watchmen (not the movie--the comic book), the scene where the Comedian kills the Vietnamese woman pregnant with his child is a good example of brutality as a window into character. He does exactly the same thing you're doing, only you're meant to read into it his own depravity at what he's experienced at the hands of war, his almost nihilistic attitude and that he calls himself "the Comedian," and also, the power of Dr. Manhattan, who is present throughout the encounter and how he does nothing. Otherwise, it's just senseless violence without a point.

Ben

Ben

First yes I used it to show the brutality of the men who were in a certain situation. Secondly what I was saying is that it is difficult in a gender fight to not seem sexist. The use of modern weaponry can be a very simple solution to a difficult problem. If you have a man shooting a woman, or a woman shooting a man, there is no unfair advantage really. You can't say really that he shoots better because he is a man or vice versa. In a sword fight or fist fight these things can be said since men are normally portrayed as having a more physical advantage which would be put to use in those types of fighting. The easiest way to not seem sexist with a man fighting a woman is with guns. Not to say the others can't be achieved with proper execution, but that is difficult and you don't want it to be perceived badly.

[Spinner]

The use of modern weaponry can be a very simple solution to a difficult problem. If you have a man shooting a woman, or a woman shooting a man, there is no unfair advantage really. You can't say really that he shoots better because he is a man or vice versa. In a sword fight or fist fight these things can be said since men are normally portrayed as having a more physical advantage which would be put to use in those types of fighting. The easiest way to not seem sexist with a man fighting a woman is with guns. Not to say the others can't be achieved with proper execution, but that is difficult and you don't want it to be perceived badly.

That's like fixing a house blown up by a nuke with scotch tape. It doesn't work. It's a cop out.

I point to Charles' posts:

To me, writing is a study of people. I don't think it's possible to be a good writer and not understand the human condition to a larger degree. To some degree, I feel this is what makes my characters better. My ability to read people correlates directly. I don't see how someone who doesn't understand other people and perspectives can write a story.

To this end, adding a cross gender fight to have a cross gender fight seems arbitrary. You might as well have your character fight a bear. Writing is an incredibly organic series of events from my experience, and once it is established as such these things will fall into place accordingly.

Organic interactions between characters can exist without gender bias because they exist in the real world. As I said, it's a matter of execution.

Ben

This post has been edited by Spinner: 26 April 2009 - 11:04 PM

[Regitnui]

I have a few gender-gender fights, but they're usually mostly sparring, and the male lead doesn't win. Mostly because he fight people who are more trained then him and faster, stronger, etc. He's very aware that he is fighting a girl, and tones down his fighting until he realises she's better than him.

And i've also got a character who will take you down without a gun in her hand, without worrying if you're a guy or a girl. beating everyone equally is a good policy for her.

I can't really contribute much more as i don't have much experience as a writer.

---,-'-@

[Invisible Ink]

Or you could say to hell with society and write a gender fight and break through the stereotypes. Because honestly, those authors who were critized and, dare I say, hated by the "intellectual" classes back in their day are the author's we study today. Look at Kate Chopin and The Awakening. The main character, Edna, was tired of her role as mother and wife so she broke free of the stereotype and had an affair. Willa Cather read it and thought it was like social blasphemy. Cather hated it but we studied The Awakening because of the femminism in it and this was written in 1899. Maybe a hundred years from now we'll have gender fights all the time in our media and the general public will think nothing of it, but it's gotta start somewhere. Why not here?

Of course, Charles is right. Don't just write a gender fight to write a gender fight and try to be cool. Write it because it fits in the story and it comes naturally. Don't worry about how the masses will see you or your characters because there will always be at least a few people who understand what you truly meant.

[Burgoo King]

I have a very, uhh... "Awkward" sceneario planned out in Projet Scythe where a guy and a girl accidentally (through means that shall indeed make sense) switch bodies and have to find a way to switch back, for a bit of comic releif in a what is a serious story. But something bad happens and the plot thickens. As a part of the grand Ending of book one, something happens to harm that switching back process. Not being stuck in the body forever, i'm not THAT mean. But i believe it is the same kind of issue. Seriously: it's going to be a wild ride though, and absoloutly HILARIOUS to write.

But I really don't have a problem with a male fighting a female of vice versa. Its just how it fits into the story that counts.