[Fusaichi Pegasus]

So you think you can write ''Original fiction''? Well you are bound to take inspiration from other authors. Me? I take my inspiration for my fantasy novel from the Belgariad and the Lord of the Rings, and a small bit of (sickening) Paulini stuck in there. I admit it, I've borrowed a few ideas. Is this a crime? Well if you are to believe the zealots on Anti-Shurtugal, Impishidea and other sites like that, then yes it is a dreadful crime that merits book burning. I can only say that I am working on cleaning out the contamination from other authors in my next draft. But I have to admit, I would never have started writing if I had not borrowed those ideas. Some will remain in the book, sadly. I'm to reluctant to change a few of my archetypes.

So what is the acceptable level of borrowing an author can do?

[Spinner]

An author? None. A young writer? As much as they damn well please.

I really don't see what all the flap about AntiShurtugal and Impishidea is. It's not like any of the writers on there are any better than the crap they condemn--and the fact they're condemning it at all says something. It's becoming a purist movement among a bunch of kids and college kids who lack the life experience to say anything about the material. Whether your a young writer or an aspiring author, there's really little there that can help you.

If fantasy was an artistic standard, all derivation crap would be it's death knell. But it's not. Fantasy isn't an artistic standard. It's a genre of speculative fiction that has no limits by implication. As a young writer, you really can write whatever you want. People will enjoy it. You'll enjoy it. When you want to publish that's when you start thinking about this stuff and your values and what kind of work you want to put out. Personally, I think it's a published writers duty to in some way make people think in a way they haven't before--or at least strive to.

Ben

[Kari]

Well said in many parts Ben, though I have to admit I'd never thought like that before. XD

I'd mainly say that borrowing is condoned as long as you redefine the idea, as you would redefine a race you borrowed. Stealing an idea and applying it exactly shouldn't be allowed, especially if you're publishing your works.

Following what ben said, I'd agree that a fantasy author, with unlimited possibilities in front of him, would do best to follow his own ideas and not use someone else's. Books simply go in a circle that way.

[Behave Yourself]

An author? None. A young writer? As much as they damn well please.

I really don't see what all the flap about AntiShurtugal and Impishidea is. It's not like any of the writers on there are any better than the crap they condemn--and the fact they're condemning it at all says something. It's becoming a purist movement among a bunch of kids and college kids who lack the life experience to say anything about the material. Whether your a young writer or an aspiring author, there's really little there that can help you.

If fantasy was an artistic standard, all derivation crap would be it's death knell. But it's not. Fantasy isn't an artistic standard. It's a genre of speculative fiction that has no limits by implication. As a young writer, you really can write whatever you want. People will enjoy it. You'll enjoy it. When you want to publish that's when you start thinking about this stuff and your values and what kind of work you want to put out. Personally, I think it's a published writers duty to in some way make people think in a way they haven't before--or at least strive to.

Ben

Actually Ben, it isn't a published writer's duty to write to make people think in a different way or send a message or whatever. Sometimes writing can just be used for entertainment, escapism - it doesn't necessarily need to be about anything to do with sending a message or showing somebody something they didn't think about at all before. There's nothing wrong with writing for entertainment, IMO - it doesn't need to always relate to the real world.

That being said, derivatives are usually bad in any setting. If you're going to write about elves, dwarves, and the like, you should at least bother to make them mostly your creation (Or at least put an original light on them. E. E. Knight's Age of Fire series does an excellent job of this, for example).

Bottom line, if you're going to write derivatively like that, don't try to get published. What you write should be as original as you can make it and still keep it good - it should be yours, not partly 'borrowed' from somebody else.

James

[eragon nerd]

Actually Ben, it isn't a published writer's duty to write to make people think in a different way or send a message or whatever. Sometimes writing can just be used for entertainment, escapism

And that is why he said "Personally" and "I think".

And back to topic, inspiration from another author is perfectly fine. Using similar techniques might get you branded as a "Thief" but only if you are a published author. Why? Because your making money off this work and part of the reason why you might be making money is because you "stole" the idea of someone else.

In this way, if your writing for practice, which is consider educational, you fall under "fair use" which means you are immune from lawsuits and all that mess for Intellectual Property infringement.

If your worried about borrowing just a thing here or there, don't forget fan-fiction borrows the entire world, characters, and often plot, of published authors.

This post has been edited by eragon nerd: 20 August 2009 - 03:34 PM

[Regitnui]

It is safe to borrow a few things without being called out. Paying tribute in writing is alove and well. I did submit a blog post on the subject and it got eaten...

---,-'-@

[Spinner]

Actually Ben, it isn't a published writer's duty to write to make people think in a different way or send a message or whatever. Sometimes writing can just be used for entertainment, escapism - it doesn't necessarily need to be about anything to do with sending a message or showing somebody something they didn't think about at all before. There's nothing wrong with writing for entertainment, IMO - it doesn't need to always relate to the real world.

It really depends on your aspirations, James. If you aspire to be a tactless, insubstantial sellout like Twilight and Inheritance, by all means, write for escapism and entertainment. You'll make a bundle, but you'll get laughed at--and since I know you preach originality, you're pretty much dancing in the tracks of that by writing for pure escapism. Obviously, we're differentiating between the guys having fun with their writing and writing for themselves, rather than the folks who have fun writing and write for others, the fun being dictated by the glow of the reviews.

My problem with your point is that if you look at the stuff out there for entertainment these days, you'll see the vast majority of it is crap. You need to be incredibly intelligent to write something good with the aim of entertainment, and for that, you need life experience, which pretty much gives your writing substance by default. Don't make the mistake in thinking that saying something automatically means you have to make astute observations about life and politics. Look at comedians--the reason we find them funny is because they're offering a humorously slanted view of life. Sometimes, it makes you think. No philosophical crap required.

Simple entertainment, in an American context, is the concept of the blockbuster.

Ben

[Hresvelgr]

I really don't see what all the flap about AntiShurtugal and Impishidea is. It's not like any of the writers on there are any better than the crap they condemn--and the fact they're condemning it at all says something. It's becoming a purist movement among a bunch of kids and college kids who lack the life experience to say anything about the material. Whether your a young writer or an aspiring author, there's really little there that can help you.

Dead on impression right there. Hell, they even lost track of what the original purpose of their website was, they just go on about random crap. I even got so sick of the elitism I made myself the self-proclaimed Inheritance fan of the forums, despite the fact I haven't touched the books in years and never read Brisingr. Some of them were cool, but it was dominated by mostly Inheritance Forums rejects who actually never even had any interest in writing.

Anyways, all you gotta do is draw the line between inspiration and stealing. At first I even had lots of ideas from Eragon (bad as some might say it is, I enjoyed it and it inspired me to write) in addition to other stuff like LotR and Princess Mononoke. Surprising, right? Anyways, eventually it just kinda evolved into something else entirely up until the point where I gave up writing due to personal problems. Anyways, if you can think on your own enough, same thing should happen to you. Except the giving up part, hopefully.

[EC is better than CP]

Insiration is one thing. Flat out taking the plot of a book is different. In my writing I try and make it as original as possible. And it is really original. I think that getting inspiration is ok. But taking virtually every aspect of your writing from other works of literature is wrong. It shows that you are not creative enough to come up with things own your own.

[Hresvelgr]

That's obvious, but one thing writer's with your outlook do not realize is originality does not necessarily mean good. You can be as original as can be, but your book could still be crap. Basically, you really, really shouldn't go out of your way to make things more original. This is one of the weakpoints of A Song of Ice and Fire series. The author it seemed decided that good things and endings were too cliched and went out of his way to make the books miserable. That might be fun for those weird, ceaselessly cynical snobs, but it isn't good for casual or mainstream readers. TV Tropes sums it up well, tropes are not cliches, you can have archetypes and they actually tend to make work better. It's why they are archetypes in the first place. A cliche is a trope or archetype gone bad or misused. Learn which is which and you don't have to go out of your way to be original.

[Regitnui]

I really don't see what all the flap about AntiShurtugal and Impishidea is. It's not like any of the writers on there are any better than the crap they condemn--and the fact they're condemning it at all says something. It's becoming a purist movement among a bunch of kids and college kids who lack the life experience to say anything about the material. Whether your a young writer or an aspiring author, there's really little there that can help you.

Dead on impression right there. Hell, they even lost track of what the original purpose of their website was, they just go on about random crap. I even got so sick of the elitism I made myself the self-proclaimed Inheritance fan of the forums, despite the fact I haven't touched the books in years and never read Brisingr. Some of them were cool, but it was dominated by mostly Inheritance Forums rejects who actually never even had any interest in writing.

Anyways, all you gotta do is draw the line between inspiration and stealing. At first I even had lots of ideas from Eragon (bad as some might say it is, I enjoyed it and it inspired me to write) in addition to other stuff like LotR and Princess Mononoke. Surprising, right? Anyways, eventually it just kinda evolved into something else entirely up until the point where I gave up writing due to personal problems. Anyways, if you can think on your own enough, same thing should happen to you. Except the giving up part, hopefully.

As a writer, you can draw initial inspriation from a number of sources, but what comes out the other end of the creative process is your problem. During the writning period (Which can take years) the initial inspirations should evolve into something more original, simply because it is being written, read and edited by a different group of people to the originals.

---,-'-@

[Malus Rune]

I agree with Regitnui. There isn't harm in deriving a basic concept, because chances are by the time you've really thought about it it'll come out completely different.

For example, my I&E entry was thought up when I was watching Sleepy Hollow (the film). In the original version, several people would get murdered by the Beast over the story and the scenes would take place all across Shryne instead of just in the Manor House. But while the small-village-beset-by-evil-summoned-by-a-member-of-the-village concept is still present, it's completely different. I've changed the setting and the motive, and shortened it. I added a Sci-fi theme. And I added additional important plot elements and morals. So apart from atmospherically, it isn't much like Sleepy Hollow anymore at all.

[Hresvelgr]

As a writer, you can draw initial inspriation from a number of sources, but what comes out the other end of the creative process is your problem. During the writning period (Which can take years) the initial inspirations should evolve into something more original, simply because it is being written, read and edited by a different group of people to the originals.

---,-'-@

Yeah, that's kinda what I said...

[Regitnui]

As a writer, you can draw initial inspriation from a number of sources, but what comes out the other end of the creative process is your problem. During the writning period (Which can take years) the initial inspirations should evolve into something more original, simply because it is being written, read and edited by a different group of people to the originals.

---,-'-@

Yeah, that's kinda what I said...

Kinda. I said it differently. That's the point, actually. That was two people explaining the same concept, but in different ways. In the same way, your concepts as a writer will change because of your individual voice.

---,-'-@

[Spinner]

You guys need to stop being derivative of each other.

Ben