[Kari]

Now, I've been editing fiction on these and other forums for maybe a little over a year, and there's nothing that makes me angrier than god-praising. This is usually a noob member who, after reading the story, was so captivated that he or she felt the need to tell the teenage'd, new writer that he/ she is a god-writer. People, when giving praise you never, ever go over the top.

What exactly do I mean with going over the top?

As XXX was saying you were indeed writing at God level. But I think you might Have surpassed it today with this unbelievable chapter .

O.M.G.

That is the only phrase I can think of right now. The awesomeness of this fanfic has crushed all other thoughts in a blaze of well written sadistic pleasure.

On another side,

Not a bad chapter. You are doing really well on this, IMHO. Can't wait for the next update!

Summing that mini-lecture up, please update soon, it's a fantastic story.

These last two examples are a much better way of expressing your enthusiasm, without going over the top.

Now we've actually pinpointed what god-praising is, I hear you ask, so what? So what if we go over the top? We love the story! So, to answer that exact question, lets analyze what happens when you overindulge the writer.

Consequences of God-Praise.

Now, many of you newbie/ nooby readers out there, who are too enthusiastic in your praise, I'm sure you're just expressing that exact emotion. You loved the update/ story so far and, carried away in a wave of joy, you start typing your exact thoughts out as a fan note to the writer. There are two faults in that perspective.

The first is to do with you as a critic mind. When you're reading fiction, especially fanfiction, you can't expect the writer to be genuinely astonishing. there are many talented writers out there, and that's a fact, but people called [i[editors[/i] exist for a reason. They're to look over your work and point out its faults. And mark my words, everyone has faults. By simply ignoring this and rushing into a sentimental , slushy-gushy sentence of worship, you're just demonstrating that you haven't got any power of critical analysis.

But to be honest, I care much more for the writer than your self-image.

When you overindulge a writer in praise, especially when you start calling him a god, the writer starts to develop and ego. The size of this ego then depends on the character of the author. keep in mind that, even though the writer might start out with a good idea of his or her abilities, when you're constantly bombarded with a host of nooby worshipers, your ego is gradually going to inflate. And that's only talking about serious writers. If the writer's a noob himself, then the ego will skyrocket right up high, to be lost somewhere in the clouds.

And so what, you ask.

Well, think about it carefully. When a writer has an ego the size of Alaska, and a nice person comes along and actually wants to offer constructive criticism, most likely the author, steadily on his high horse, will just brush him off with an ostentatious remark of supremity, without realizing he's running headlong towards a brick wall. In other words, the writer will stop listening to criticism, which will stop the story (and thus the writer) from getting any better than he is. And the person, after having wasted to much time, will eventually either leave, or be chased off by a flock of enraged noob supporters, who'd never dream of letting their god be criticized.

The most recent example I remember getting of both these phenomena is the following:

First of all,Second try Kari and Gatoman, and it was there first time meeting. Her mother was angry and wouldn't just send someone out to give Ajihad a message. Second of all, I was in a rush, which most of the time i will be. There will be certain occasions where you will get an awesome update. If I wouldn't rush, I might as well wouldn't right the story at all, due to lack of time.

Example of the writer's direct reaction to my critique. The fans? After a brief arguement, I got..

Oh, honestly. Don't you think you're nit-picking a bit much? I agree, it doesn't make sense that the Varden had no idea why she was coming, but that could be fixed by a simple edit. And, she didn't elope. How could she? .....

The writer again:

'Your trying to hard to crit on everything Kari&Gatoman' followed by promise of update.

The one of my favorite writers, whom I also critique, steps in and makes them see sense. Trust me, people, I'm not editing that story again. Why bother wasting time and energy, when your comments aren't welcome? Do I lose, or does the writer lose? I don't care, but you incite the writer into his own trap.

On the other hand, if the writer was a noob/ newb to begin with, like the above, he'll never get better. Newbs/ Noobs are usually creatures with large egos by definition, but with correct guidance, they can see the light and become much better. For example, that's what happened with me. But if they have a crowd of fellow newbs and noobs backing them, they'll think they're the next Tolkien without even being able to write a sentence correctly punctuated. All this'll result in is the author being horribly ridiculed outside the cosy topic of his work.

Furthermore, if you over-praise an author, he will gradually think he can do no wrong. SO, his work will become sloppier and sloppier, and you'll just lap it up like a good androi- I mean, fan. This will only hurt the story you adore so darn much, so, is it really worth it?

To sum all the above up, you're making right idiots out of yourselves, and stopping the writer from ever getting better. If he ever does get better, it will have to be something either very sudden, or very painful epiphany.

So, to avoid bringing about all the above, we end up at..

How to Praise Correctly

The first thing you need to remember is that, whatever you write, however much you simply adore the story, you should always stay lukewarm to medium hot. Always, and I do mean always, read through your post again and think; did I make it sound as if this was perfect? Did I leave any hint it could be improved upon? If you did and didn't respectively, fix your post.

Words/ Phrases to be avoided:

Perfect
Amazingly awesome
You're a god
I'm going to go back to being comatose because of the sheer awesomeness of this fic (Yes, I've actually seen this)
Epic

Instead, you can use these;

Very/ incredibly good/ well-written
Astouding work, you did very well
Good description/ emotion/ plot/ character development

Just because you used the word awesome, it doesn't mean I'll stalk you and kill you Hitman-style. These words can be used as well, but only if they're used wisely.

Example:

Wrong: Awesome! This is the most amazing fanfic I've ever read!!! I can't WAIT to write more! You're a relaly talented writer!

Right: The last chapter was really good! Much better than the last ones! You're really starting to get the hang of it! Your emotion was way better now, and even your description was getting there. Very nice!

There's no real formula to staying between the lines of mediocre and awesome praise. One good re-read should really do you the trick.


To recapitulate everything we said above, don't god-praise. You end up looking stupid and hurt the writer you so profess to love. Please, people, there are writers out there struggling to maintain some level of modesty, and editors just trying to help. Don't overindulge the first in praise, no matter how good the writer is, nor abuse the poor soul who's actually using up his personal time and energy to help. We have feelings, too.

Everything would be so much more constructive if, instead of just a quick comment and a demand for an update, you actually took the time to at least say why you liked the story. You help the writer along and, in the long run, if you like him so much, shouldn't you want to do just that?

I hope I'll stop seeing so many god-praises around here because, to be honest, after an arrogant writer, that's the immediate next thing on my 'list of hated things' in writing.

[/end rant]

This post has been edited by Kari&Gatomon: 06 October 2009 - 02:44 PM

[Hold Your Peace]

Thanks for making this thread Kari, it is very usefull information you have put in there. I 100% agree with you on those points it's not very fun for the writer either to take his/her time to carefully compose a chapter and then get nothing but spam in reply.

People realy have to start seeing the diffrence bewtween God Praise and Constructive Praise. I have written a few stories since joining and I belive you have been a crituqe for at least two of my stories. I don't have a very good memory so I have to ask *clears throat akwardly* would that writer in the example happen to be me?

When I first joined I usualy went on defense when crituqe was given on my writing, I'm gratefull to say that that is no longer the case and I welcome crituqe, it only helps me improve.

Thorn Pwns.

P.s. I belive you double posted this thread.

This post has been edited by Thorn Pwns: 06 October 2009 - 03:08 PM

[Behave Yourself]

This happens to me all the time. It gets really annoying to have a complete and utter lack of critique, the reason why I post my stories in the first place, and instead get this bullshit praise that means nothing to me. (I stopped caring what others think about my writing a long time ago.)

I suggest people take this as a message to GTFO threads if you can't give critique. Or, at the very least, please GTFO my threads. On all sites. Kthx.

--

Kari, this was a very well-done article. You're ten times better at writing articles then I am, since this is a very professional-looking article. (And most of the time I can't say much for anything I write except "DO BLANK" which is certainly the wrong way to go about things). Very well done, very well-written, and it was easy to read. Nothing stood out in my mind that made me cringe or be incredibly bored. It flowed rather well.

James

[Kari]

P.s. I belive you double posted this thread.

Yes, I reported the other for closing.

In fact, I was going to use you as an example of a writer that changes heart, but I forgot it in the end. XD You're not the writer in the example, no, and I won't name him/ her.

To bth of you, thanks for agreeing. I know how frustrating it is to not get good critique, or to have it ignored. What actually pushed me to writing this was a mini-rant I had in a story I was editing.

Readers beware; you have been warned.

[WingedWolf]

^I remember that rant. It was very impressive. I can't really remember it...very vague...wasn't it something like
THE NEXT TIME SOMEONE TELLS HER SHE IS A WRITER GOD I WILL PERSONALLY PURSUE THEM DOWN A FOGGY, DARK ALLEY AND RIP THEIR GUTS OUT OF THEIR ABDOMEN, WRAP THEM AROUND THEIR THROAT AND CHOKE THEM UNTIL NEAR DEATH, THEN BEAT THEM TO DEATH WITH THEIR SPINE WHICH I WILL RIP OUT WITH A PAIR OF CHOPSTICKS.
Yeah, something like that....

I would like to say that it's just as annoying to other readers of the story to sit there scrolling through a bunch of *bleeep* that says "OMG u r like the best writer in da history of da wurld!" Incredibly annoying, and I imagine it's twice as annoying to the actual author. I know it would annoy me, at least. Actually, one author's exact words in response to a critique I posted in her story was "Yay for actual critique! I was drowning in sugary compliments." Authors want actual advice an opinions, not a load of...never mind.

This post has been edited by WingedWolf: 06 October 2009 - 05:30 PM

[Day Star]

I have to agree with all the above points. In general, over praising hurts writer, reader and editor, even if the effects are not noticed for awhile. I'd also like to point out the stress that God- comments can put on the writer. You feel like you have an obligation to do exceptionally well, and when the writer sees a perfectly sensible critique, pointing out something that was wrong, they may feel crushed that they have disappointed their "fans."

That being said, do not forget to compliment the writer from time to time, although keep it below... Oh I don't know, maybe Titan level. Writers need reassurance they are doing well, and even a simple comment after a critique like, "I've enjoyed your story a lot so far, please keep writing," can make a writer's day.

Kari, thank you so much for making this much needed thread.

[Athlan na Dyr]

As a god praiser myself (looks at one of the above examples which I assume was from me) we of the god praising type do it to properly convey the magnitude of the awesomeness the writer has shown as well as attempting to reassure ourselves that we do not suck that much at writing.

however you are right Thorn Pwns, Kari&Gatomon, WingedWolf, Adurna Shrrg and LyriantheFirst that it probably is over the top and unnecessary...

I will stop doing it.

Sorry.

[dragon_god]

Well, as a writer myself, I don't think that we mind the occasional post of high praise. Not receiving any good things at all and just "Oh, you can fix that and that and work on that. And I didn't quite understand that part." can be frustrating and devastating for a writer's motivation. I know that a writer is supposed to know to expect constructive criticism, kind of a big duh, but I think that there is a thing as too much constructive criticism on a single chapter. It eventually gets to the point where the writer feels like he's written the best chapter he's capable of writing and then feels like he's being told the chapter he's spent so much time and effort trying to write is just complete and utter crap.

I've had that happen to me and I've ended up rewriting the first 3 chapters of Uprising because I felt that way. Those chapters were just garbage. So I deleted everything and started from scratch. I felt better afterwords but still. That was a lot of hard work I put into them. Now all I get for my more recent chapters are a few grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors. Nothing too big. I'll even hold in-depth discussions about why I did the things I did and explain myself so that my readers have a better idea about the way I think and the way I see things in my mind. Then occasionally, I'll ask for their suggestions as to what should happen later in the story and see if they have any input so that they're as much a part of the story as I am. Receiving their input and opinions can REALLY help in improving my writing because then I know what exactly the readers are expecting to see. I can adapt to their suggestions and then everyone is happy. Then the process repeats itself.

All I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to receive the occasional boost to keep the writer motivated. Just don't smother us with them. One or two in a great while, maybe after X number of chapters or after a really difficult chapter, but not 5 or 6 immediately after the newest update. That's taking it overboard.


dragon_god

[Kari]

I agree, of course. If you noticed, I never spoke against praise. God knows I praise AS to death. BUT, you should never get too overboard. Always tell the writer it was a good piece of work, even when you wanted to burn it, to keep your self-esteem up.

Receiving their input and opinions can REALLY help in improving my writing because then I know what exactly the readers are expecting to see. I can adapt to their suggestions and then everyone is happy. Then the process repeats itself.

You just killed your post for me. Adapting YOUR story to the FANS' wishes means its not technically your story. How can you call it your own work when, just to please your fans, you sell your own ideas and plans?

[Go for Gin]

As a god praiser myself (looks at one of the above examples which I assume was from me) we of the god praising type do it to properly convey the magnitude of the awesomeness the writer has shown as well as attempting to reassure ourselves that we do not suck that much at writing.

Yeah, that was...pretty much god-praising right there. Aimed at pretty much everyone. "Convey the magnitude of the awesomeness the writer has shown...go back and reread. You completely missed the point.

However, I must disagree with one part (or perhaps agree with an exception, only emphasize it): Xtreme Praise, even though it should be used sparingly, should be used on occasion. Sometimes you do come across something that truly is amazing. Something that deserves a higher magnitude of praise. Go ahead, praise the author. What I would add is that, if you're easily impressed, you should never do this. Here is a quick guide to determine how easily impressed you are:

Do you read primarily fanfiction?
Are the works you critique written primarily by your friends?
Do you leave enthusiastic comments after everything you read?
When you critique, does your critique consist only of praise?
Are you easily impressed?
Is your reading experience limited primarily to one author, one genre, or one type of book?
Have you never read a "classic" (Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia will not count, simply because they're fantasy and the above questions deals primarily with fantasy)?
Are your comments ones that would be unhelpful to the author?
Are your comments non-specific? (i.e. This is so amazing! as opposed to What I really liked was...)

If you answered yes to most (or even any) of these questions, you probably should not god-praise until you've gained more experience. If not, it shows you have a more mature taste and/or are not afraid to give actual critiques. If you can tear something to pieces, you're also more than qualified to praise it to death.


Sorry to steal ya thunder there, K&G. I've gained respect for you as a writer/editor, and I'd just like to let you know that I am not afraid of having my work ripped to shreds. You can avoid praising my stories any day .

[Kari]

On the contrary, I agree with you, Dwarves. And a very nice addition to this thread, that survey of yours. By all means, there really are some excellent writers out there and, on other forums, I don't critique, just give praise. But I still think very few people actually deserve god-praise. Sure, from an experienced reader, I can understand. Your survey sets apart the newbies from the oldies, to use easy terms, which helps us understand what and where we are at.

God-praise can be used, and I have used it (especially in my own noob days), but I feel that setting the parameter for its possible use encourages people to go ahead and use it, convinced what they've read is simply all-worthy.

And no, I always praise the author, even though I tear the chapter to pieces. XD You always have to find a balance; never shoot down without hauling the line back up, or else the writer's self-confidence just dies.

This post has been edited by Kari&Gatomon: 08 October 2009 - 04:07 PM

[WingedWolf]

Adapting YOUR story to the FANS' wishes means its not technically your story.

Well, dragon_god doesn't just add whatever we ask him to. He just asks us for a general idea of what we would like to see, and if it fits into his plan, he might add it, or he might not. (Can you tell I'm a regular Uprising poster?) Sorry, felt need to defend author. But you're right, just putting whatever "people want to see" is a great way to completely ruin a story.

This post has been edited by WingedWolf: 08 October 2009 - 04:17 PM

[dragon_god]

Thanks, WingedWolf.

Yeah, I don't really just say "hey, what do you think should happen next?" It's very important decisions. For example, my last major question to the readers was about if a dragon's mate dies, should the living dragon move on to another or should they refuse to pursue another mate? Things of this magnitude are key to not making the story seem more unrealistic than what it already is, I mean, it's already a fan-fiction. The last thing the story needs is something that makes the characters mentioned seem "cheap" and unethical. It's these kind of decisions I leave up to the readers because, quite frankly, I don't have all the answers to every situation. It's times like that where I ask for a mature input from the readers so that I know how to best proceed in the story without making it crap or offending people. Most of the time, the readers all agree on the same decision and provide the same reasoning so it's not like I have a favorite reader and I just pick one person's ideas to put in the story. I don't put anyone's ideas into the story except my own. But the feedback I get from them helps me plan ahead for future chapters.

[dragonking555]

Yawn......I don't think this is a big deal.

I'll agree that go-praising isn't very helpful to progress and getting better but it is really nothing more than shallow compliments that at the same time are completely over the top.

I say to the god praisers that you should mark on the bad as well as the good because the stories here are far from being perfect. Avoid god-praising because its not helpful or useful in any way but also authors should not let these go to your head negatively or positively. Its not a big deal either way.

[WingedWolf]

Well, if by "big deal" you mean life-altering, earth-shattering big deals, then no, it's not a big deal. But it is seriously annoying.

@dragon_god--Don't mention it!